This is an adaptation from an internet conversation I had.  I am posting this to show the irrational and contradictive nature that many Christian are stuffed to the brim with.  Dear readers, please avoid such things.  For have you not realized that growing in good truth is as important as good deeds( 1 John 3:18)?

           Jesus Christ Himself appealed and adhered to the law-of-noncontradictions sucn as in Mark 12:35-36.  Thus, the bible itself indorses that this law is a true logical law, despite it being a self-justified logical law.  It's a true law because God' mind itself, if you would, is the law of noncontradictions.  This is important because as Christians if we speak contradictive nonsense then not only does this disregard the bible (because although complicated it is never contradictive), but shows Christianity as false to the world around us.  For many pagans, because of God's laws written on their souls, know enough that whatever is contradictive is false.  Now, not all pagans are intelligent enough to recognize contradictions but many do.  Therefore, this is why it is not loving to Jesus Christ to speak contradictive nonsense and then drag His Name and gospel down with you, because you claim to be Christian!  You do not love God in this way, but are dragging His honor down with you in your own self embarrassment.

         I will keep the person's identity hidden for respect sake, but will indicate their comments in blue.  I have done some slight editing and expounding to make this more readable for my readers.  This conversation happened when I posted on Twitter this comment:

Jeremiah 29:7, although God is Sovereign, yet He commands us to pray. This means we are to see life through our perspective and through God's at the same time.[1]

They responded with:

-- -So do our prayers actually make a difference in our world?

-- Why would the Holy Spirit give us prayers to pray back to the Father if God in His sovereignty will fulfill them regardless?

        "Why would God need us to pray..." - First, God needs nothing nor can He receive anything from us which is not already His (Acts 17:25 & Chronicles 29:14). Therefore, God does not "need" us to pray, let alone anything else from us.  Instead, the question you need to ask is this: what does the Almighty God delight in, rather than, what he needs?  Where is God's passions and delights, what is He doing to glorify Himself?  God delights in Himself above all things and so He delights in His saints delighting in Him.  God's greatest passion is for His Son. Because God has caused the saints to be the greatest means of beholding and reflecting His Son's glory in praises, God therefore, greatly love His saints.  Thus, He delights to hear their prayers and help them.  He delights in their prayers which publicly honor His Son whom He loves so much.

          Furthermore, God speaks in the bible how He hears us with His ears from heaven, when in fact God has no ears!  Why does God say this then?  It's called love!  He is humbling Himself to speak and relate to us lowly humans on our level!  Wow, what a wonderful God He is.

            Likewise, when God has decreed something and then also has decreed for me to pray this very thing, in this, God is being very loving to me by bringing me into His Divine actions or plans in a relational way.  These plans, among others, include me learning and knowing Him better so that I may experience more pleasure in Christ.  Prayer is part of that learning and knowing Jesus better.  This is a public world, created for His own public glory.  Mankind is the height of His design for His glory to be seen, comprehended and reflected back to Him in holy love and praises.  Therefore, He desires to have many of His sovereign decrees prayed by physical mouths and passionate hearts.  In this process He teaches His saints of Himself, meets their present needs and produces a public display of His glory being known and loved.  Indeed, He prepares the hearts of His humble to pray (Psalm 10:17)

          "But are we really playing a part in it if it all boils down to God's sovereignty?"- Out of respect I say this nicely: this question is irrational nonsense.  See, if it is God's sovereignty for me to be part of it then I do.  Your own question answers your question; thus, there is no point in answering it.  If it is by God's sovereignty then by necessity I play a part in it.  Do you understand?   Yet, I am guessing that your assumption is that by only being decisive or sovereign can you be said to be part of it.  Did you get this from the bible, if not, why must the bible submit to it?  According to the bible sovereign or not, yet, if you are involved in displaying Jesus' public glory then you are part of the most meaningful thing in the entire universe.  For Christians this means, although my choices are not ultimately deceive over reality, yet because I am involved, in a relational manner, in giving Jesus glory by enjoying His mercy and feasting on His loving delights then I am a playing a part in the most meaningful thing in reality: The Father's love for His Son and the Son for His Father.

        Also, what do you define as "being a part of it" and being meaningful?  Do you get this definition from the bible, culture, Buddha?  If not from the bible then why must the bible submit to it?  If being meaningful means to lovingly obey God, and God tells us to pray in His Scriptures, then despite my praying not being sovereign or decisive, then is this not by definition being meaningful and a part of it?

        "So do our prayers actually make a difference in our world?" This question is also rubbish and irrational if you ask it on the basis that God is actually sovereign.  See, if God is Sovereign over everything, then of course your prayers do make a difference because, by definition, your prayers being part of God's sovereignty are involved!  It does not mean your prayers themselves made the defining difference, but being part of God's Sovereignty in the plan for a particular result, then in this light ,your pray does make a difference.  In fact by this we understand only in light of God's sovereignty do prayers have any meaningfulness to them.

        "Why would the Holy Spirit give us prayers to pray back to the Father if God in His sovereignty will fulfill them regardless?" Again, this question is irrational and so rather unanswerable.  Yet, I will help by saying this.  God being Sovereign, by definition, cannot do something "regardless" for that would be a contradiction.  It would imply God's inner delight or will is at odds with Himself and that His own choices are at odds within Himself.  See, if it is God's delight(which is His will and causality itself) for a saint to publicly and passionately pray what His Sovereign decree or will is, then it is impossible for Him to do this "regardless" or without the prayer when the pray is the very thing He sovereignly wants to happen: understand?

-- What then do we make of the numerous scriptural examples of God changing His mind because of prayer. The Lord frequently changes his mind in the light of changing circumstances, or as a result of prayer? (Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12... See More-20; Deut. 9:13-14, 18-20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27-36; 2 Kings 20:1-7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5-22; Amos 7:1-6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4-10). At other times he explicitly states that he will change his mind if circumstances change (Jer. 18:7-11; 26:2-3; Ezek. 33:13-15). This willingness to change is portrayed as one of God's attributes of greatness (Joel 2:13-14; Jonah 4:2).

         Jesus Christ adhered to the -Law of Non-contradictions- (Mark 12:35). God rebukes inductive logic in use for finding truth (Psalm 50:21), yet endorses deductive logic (2 Peter 1:3). Therefore, scripture cannot contradict itself according to Jesus. On this alone, without having to dive into the specific scripture I know the premise "God changes His mind" is impossible for it contradicts other parts of scripture: such as His infinity, His immutability, all knowing, knowing Himself (etc.).  Only by denying these (and many others) scripturally can someone then claim to say by scripture God changes His mind.  

          A true and honest reading of scripture does not take certain passages and then cancels out other passages with it as you have just demonstrated.  God is sovereign and infinite and immutable as the bible says, and therefore, these are timeless truths. An infinite mind cannot change what His base desire or will is, if so then His mind is not truly infinite.  See, God can change His directions given to man, without having to change what was His greatest inner desire or will from before the event or even the dawn of time for that matter.  God humbly communicates with mankind in such a way it seems as if we changed God's eternal mind by a prayer, for example, but that is a contradiction to His nature it taken in the ultimate sense.

            For example, it is evident that God sets up things to be sought after as a reward, which He has determined will never come to pass!  1 Samuel 13:13, "And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever."  It is evident that God had long before decreed that the kingdom of Israel should be established in the tribe of Judah.  See, before Saul reigned as King, God had previously promised to forever establish the kingdom of Judah (Genesis 49:10), but Saul was not part of Judah!  Therefore, even though God said to Saul, I "would have established your kingdom ... forever," God knew He would have never done this in the first place since He had already promised to establish the Kingdom of Judah as His greatest desire.  This goes to show how God, while in His ultimate will or desire is never changing, does humble Himself out of love to communicate with man at their level.  God saying to Saul that He would have established his kingdom is the act of God taking time the reach down and teach Saul about the consequences of his actions and the Holiness of Himself. [2]  This is great kindness on God's part.

          Oh, but wait, you left out a scripture, Jeremiah 32:35; I get this one quoted a lot to me.  It says, "(NKJ)...which I did not command them, nor did it inter into My mind."  To say this or others scriptures implies that God changes His mind is such a disrespect of scripture that it never entered my mind that this scripture would be used to reject the doctrine of God's Sovereignty; the doctrine that God is well, actually God. [3] What you are doing is a denial of theology, and refusing to acknowledge the context of the verse.  Anyone who is acquainted with scripture should have enough intellectual awareness to see there is a distinction between divine decree and earthy precept, and also when God speaks in lowly and human ways in order to related to us on our level.  When God says He hears us with His ears, this does not mean He has actual ears, just as He does not actually change His mind. Out of great love God is humbling Himself to have relationship with us on our level, God is very kind!  This verse and others like it say that God never command nor did it enter into His mind to publically command such things as sacrificing children.   See, in context "did not command" and "nor did it enter My mind" relate to one another, that's how the verse is structured.  See how simple that was!  A public command and true change of one's mind are two different things that even children are able to recognize in their own parents, and as children of God we to should be able to recognize this in our Heavenly Father.

        Also regarding the passages of Joel 2:13-14 and Jonah 4:2 that you posted.  To say that God's "willing to change is portrayed as one of God's attributes of greatness", is a portrayal of an abuse of scripture.  These verses say no such things, rather, they portray that God's mercy and kindness is great, greater than we know!

        If you note carefully what I have said, contrary to what you have said, it brings no contradiction of scriptures, does not proof-text and lets all verses have their own voice to speak truth.  You have proof-text, contradicted yourself and canceled out passages of scripture with others, as if it makes the other passages and their doctrine disappear.  If I lived in this way in at work, I would be laughed at and fired.

        Before I comment on this I want my readers to try and see the blaring contradictions this person is about to make.  Yet, sadly this irrational creed is one which many professing Christians adhere to!  They go on to list more creeds but the contradictions just get redundant.

-- I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is absolutely ALL KNOWING. There is no difference in my understanding of God omniscience and that of any other classical theologian, but I hold that part of the reality which God perfectly knows consists of possibilities as well as actualities. The difference lies in our understanding of the nature of the future, not in our understanding of God's omniscience. [4]

I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is OMNIPOTENT. He is Creator of all things and thus all power comes from him. I also hold that God limits the exercise of his own power by giving free will to those whom he has created in his own image.. ."

 

        I Affirm it is hard to affirm what you say, due to it not making sense.  I also affirm the bible does not speak in such nonsense.

        This  is silly besides being unbiblical.  You say God "is" sovereign and then proceed to say God chooses not to "be" sovereign (for the sake fee will).   To choose not to be sovereign means you "are not" sovereign anymore.  This is so basic!  Therefore, it is nonsense for you to still affirm God is sovereign and then proceed to say He is not.  Which is it?  Please make up your mind.  I will not allow you the luxury to claim the glorious Biblical proposition that God is all sovereign and then deny it in application.  You are a fraud.  Your peers of Open Theism and Christ Victor theology champion themselves as being open and honest and loving to mankind.  Yet, this is one of the many reasons I find this theology repugnant, because it is two-faced and dishonest, and thus, not loving or open.  All of your other points are basically inundated with similar problems (among others, such as proof-texting and a failure to read in context) and so I will not spend time going over them.  But will make this general statement.

        The words God and lord in the bible, both in Greek and Hebrew, means sovereignty.  Thus, God's sovereignty "is" and not just possible.  Possibility has no existence: it has no being!   Possible sovereignty "is not" sovereignty.  God's Name Yahweh means: infinite or endless existence.  Because being infinite means God is everywhere (timeless) and because God's essence includes being sovereign, then there is no place or time where God is not already there and sovereign over it.  You cannot deny your own essence!  God's sovereignty being infinite is by necessity the causality of all things.  If God is not sovereign over everything, whether by choice or not, He is not only not sovereign but neither is He infinite, which is a denial of two biblical propositions.  God is not possible endless existence, but actual and active infinite existence.  What this tells us is that it is impossible for the Divine Nature to be anything but active infinite sovereignty.  He cannot choose not to be God, this would be a contradiction.  The Infinite Existence sovereignly choosing not to be sovereign is pure nonsense and a contradiction.  God is God all time.  Or in other words, God "is" sovereign all the time in all things; this means He chooses Himself what all things will be, even every human choice and destiny.

        God's sovereignty, therefore, is who He is.  This is means sovereignty for God is not a mere expression or attribute; His sovereignty is not something God does on Tuesday afternoon, it is who He is!  Whatever you are in your core existence you cannot stop being that or you would cease to exist what you are.  God being Sovereignty itself cannot stop being sovereign over all things even all choices of men all the time.  This is the true God of the scriptures: The infinite Sovereign Existence.  Anything less than this is paganism: or at the least the mixing of moralist Christianity with paganistic deism.

-- In reference to your statement, "God's sovereignty, therefore, is who He is" I have to disagree with you on this point.  From a Biblical perspective, who God is is this: God is a community of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Therefore, at the core of who God is is the Trinity not sovereignty.  From the very first verse of Genesis 1, the word translated as "God" is "elohim."  This is not a simple plural of the word 'god.' The plural of that word, which means 'two,' is "eloh."  "Elohim" means "three or more." This is also affirmed as the defining view of who God is by the church creeds.  So from a Biblical perspective, God SOVEREIGNLY choosing to limit the exercise of His own power by giving free will to those whom he has created in his own image does not make God any less God because God at His very essence is Trinity.

        "God sovereignly choosing to limit the exercise of His own power by giving free does not make God any less God because God at His very essence is Trinity." - The very essence of this statement is nonsense and deceptive.

        You seem to be beating around the bush more in this statement but the result is the same as last time. Not only is it a denial of the God of scripture, but it is willfully deceptive.  You keep saying God is sovereign but then turn around and say God is not sovereign.   Again I ask, is God sovereign or not?  Stop trying to deceive people you believe God is sovereign while denying it in application.

        "God is Trinity", you do good to affirm this but so do I.  This same word for "God" in Genesis you have shown that points to the doctrine of the Trinity also means be to sovereign Ruler or Judge or Deity as well.  Left this little part out did we!  Again, your miss-use of scripture appears deliberate.  You are irrational to us this as proof for God's essence being Trinity while not also affirming sovereignty being God's essence, for that is what the word also means!  The right thing to say is that God's essence includes both of these, among other things.

        The phrase "lord GOD" in scripture means: Sovereign Existence or being.  Thus, God's being or existence consists of His Sovereignty. This again is so basic!  See, I do not proof text or cancel out other scripture with other scripture or ignore parts of the scripture as you have demonstrated.  The scriptures say God's existence consist of Trinity, therefore, God's existence does.  The scriptures also record God's existence consist of His Sovereignty, therefore, it does. This is the God of the Bible, anything less is mixing Christianity with archaic paganism.

         "In reference to your statement, "God's sovereignty, therefore, is who He is" I have to disagree with you on this point. From a Biblical perspective..." -Yet, it seems you have done quite the contrary, rather, you have shown the scriptures disagree with you by your own words.  I could not have done a better job of refuting your statement than what you have already done against yourself.  See, this is the "very essence" of being contradictive: you defeat your own arguments with your own words.  

I felt for this person, for it was as if they wanted to me to show how contradictive they were and just kept coming back for more. Yet, this is my experience with many professing Christians.  I can only image a half-way intellectual nonbeliever hearing this person say such things would walk away thinking to themselves: "I want nothing to do with this contradictive Jesus who says He is sovereign but then says He is not.  I wonder if it is the same for the cross.  He says He saves me, but then will He later say He does not? This isn't salvation, its nonsense." 

As with all immaturity, foolishness and sin, as Christians we have the cross of Jesus Christ before us.  This is why He died for us.  We are sinners; we are intellectual sinners and failures.  When we should be glorifying God with our minds, yet instead with prideful and lazy thinking we place man before God and dishonor God's greatest love, Jesus Christ.  Still, out of personal love and great mercy Jesus Christ died for our sins, in our place, for us!   He did this so that He, by the power of His Spirit, could be for us our salvation and our wisdom!  If you find your life does not publically the honor Christ showing that you have cast off this worlds thinking in exchange for Christ being your wisdom, then repent!  He gladly receives and forgives all sincere repentance.  At a definite time and place He made an end of all  your sin, rejoice!  Leave worldly logic for Godly wisdom.  Leave praises of yourself for praise of Him who saved you.  God is a caring Father to all who come to Him in Christ our Lord!  Trade contradictions for solid truth to rest your weary souls upon in Christ!  Let Christ's wisdom permeate through you so that the world will be convicted at its sinful thinking  and so turn to Jesus for they will be convinced that when He says He is sovereign Judge He is so in every application and when He says He is a merciful Savior He is so in every application! To God be the Glory forever.

[1]  To understand in more detail about seeing both God's viewpoint and ours see my article: Seeing with two Perspectives.

[2] Consequently, Since God did that with Saul then likewise, God may publically invite all men to be saved, and all the while never intending to save all of them and only electing who Him wishes.

[3] The outline of my statement here comes from an article I read by Vincent Cheung.  To know more see www.vincentcheung.com, and see the article Jeremiah 32:35.

[4] For my explanation on the topic of God's foreknowledge please see my book: The Divine Decrees, PublishAmerica, ₂₀₀₇